Welcome back to the Edgedancer reread! This week we will be covering chapters 5 and 6, in which Lift has some pretty sobering thoughts about orphans and how they’re viewed in society, meets a Stump, and discusses snot with a philosopher. Gripping, we know. No worries though, we’ll get to the good stuff soon.
Edgedancer can be found in the Arcanum Unbounded collection, or if you wait a few more weeks you can buy it as a separate e-book (or mini-hardcover). Meanwhile, this reread will contain spoilers for both The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. We do ask—or even insist—that any spoilers for the early-release chapters of Oathbringer be marked as spoilers and white-texted.
The Awesomeness
Chapter 5: Lift relaxes a bit after a harried chase from the guard who accused her of assault, and thinks about the Words she’s spoken (“I will remember those who have been forgotten.”). She thinks about her mother, and wonders who will remember her. She tells Wyndle that they had to leave Azir because she’s afraid of people knowing who she is, of recognizing her. Expecting things of her. And that scares her.
Chapter 6: Lift has a slangful conversation with a street urchin about a woman who runs an orphanage. She goes to visit and has some thoughts about the reality of such places. A young injured boy is abandoned there, and the mistress of the orphanage—a woman named Stump—comes out and takes him in, but says that he’s faking it. She refuses to let Lift in, telling her that she can have three meals and sleep on the stone benches outside. An old man discusses philosophy with her, then Lift’s off for an “appointment”…
Kadasixes and Stars
Lyn:
“And who is the person you actually are?”
She’d known that once, hadn’t she?
This is very interesting from a character perspective. Lift seems to be longing to remember the person she was long ago, and not appreciating or realizing the traits that make her who she is NOW. We all grow and change as we have new experiences which shape us, but does she? Does her “unchanging” nature affect her personality as well? And speaking of unchanging… She obviously still remembers her mother, as she thinks of her once or twice in these chapters. But how long HAS it been since she was with her? A dozen years? A hundred? How long has Lift been unchanged, unaging?
Alice: For what it’s worth, Lyn, I really think it’s only been three years. Back in her Words of Radiance interlude, she claimed to be ten (because that’s how high she could count on her fingers) and thought that she’d been ten for three years now. While it’s certainly possible that she’s ignoring time altogether, I think it’s more likely that she’s telling the truth. On the other hand, I could really like being wrong about this—it would be way more fun to have her be an order of magnitude older than she’s willing to accept!
L: I’m sticking to my “she’s way older than she wants to admit” theory. I think that if you’ve remained unchanging (or immortal) long enough, time would cease to have the same meaning for you. She may think it’s only been three years… but I suspect she’s an unreliable narrator in this case, and it’s been longer. I look forward to finding out an answer to this question eventually, one way or the other!
A: Well, she’s totally an unreliable narrator—she all but defines the term—so nothing is really off the table with her. We’ll watch for the answer together!
For my quote, I picked a chunk that really jumped out at me—not the first time through, but on the reread:
“You,” the girl said to Lift. “Outsida?”
“Yeah.”
“You listenin’?”
“I’m listenin’.”
“People, they don’t listen.” She smiled at Lift again, then finally scuttled away.
Foreshadowing FTW!! And then later (I’m gonna do two!! You started something, Lyn!):
People, they don’t listen. Did Lift listen? She did usually, didn’t she? Why did the little urchin girl care, anyway?
I don’t think there’s anything Significant about the little urchin girl, but the way she specifically turned back and added the bit about listening… well, it makes me wonder if she’s more than just a little urchin girl.
L: Yeah, that conversation carried more weight than just a simple exchange. And we know that Sanderson rarely drops things like this in for no reason!
Pet Voidbringer
A: One of the things I love about this pair is the way Sanderson uses Wyndle to ask Lift all the questions the readers are asking—and it fits perfectly, because he doesn’t really understand her, but he’s bonded to her and needs to understand better. So Wyndle asks her why she hasn’t returned to the Reshi Isles, and he becomes her sounding board as she gives yet another reason (or another angle) for leaving Azir. It gets hilarious sometimes, of course, and at others incredibly poignant, as Wyndle sees things from a (somewhat alien) spren’s point of view, while Lift sees them with the too-mature eye of a street kid. It makes a nice contrast as well as giving us lots of insight without info-dumping.
L: That’s a great point, Alice. Wyndle functions as the “stranger,” and performs his role as “reader stand-in” very well. Interestingly, I don’t remember Sanderson using Sylphrena or Pattern for this same purpose back in The Way of Kings, as they were slowly regaining themselves and their memories.
Journey before Pancakes Lunks
L: Clemabread is the only food we get a description of in this chapter. It’s thick and granular, with spicy paste at the center. Later Lift says it breaks apart easily, almost a mush. Okay, let me be the first to say EW. It might just be because I don’t like spicy foods, but this sounds completely awful to me.
A: Then let me be the second to say EWWW. On first sight, I thought it had potential to be good, but if it’s mushy… not so much. It sounds like sort of an attempt at a hot-pocket, but made with corn meal and not very much filling.
L: Ugh. The thought of a hot pocket made of smooshy corn meal is making my stomach turn… but I guess in Lift’s case, beggars (literally) can’t be choosers!
A: Having burned off all her Stormlight, Lift needs food and soon, which is why she ends up at the orphanage, of course. And I find it necessary to quote her reaction to this extremity:
“To turn your phrase back at you, mistress, food is food.”
“Yeah,” Lift said. “It’s just… What’s the challenge of eating a lunch someone gives you?”
“I’m certain you will survive the indignity, mistress.”
Oh, Wyndle, I adore you. Lift, shut up and go get some food, already!
Friends and Strangers
The Philosopher
L: This guy is too interesting to not show back up later. Something to note: I have an absolutely terrible memory and I haven’t re-read Edgedancer since the beta read ages ago, so I’m almost going into this as a first-time reader. I seem to recall him showing back up… but even if I didn’t have that knowledge, I don’t think Sanderson would have spent this much time on him if he wasn’t going to be important later!
Stump
She looked like the child of a broom and a particularly determined clump of moss. Her skin drooped off her bones like something you’d hack up after catching crud in the slums, and she had spindly fingers that Lift figured might be twigs she’d glued in place after her real ones fell off.
A: Aside from cracking up over the description, which was just too good not to quote, we will most definitely be seeing more of this one! (Also, I keep reading “demented” instead of “determined,” which may be part of why I keep snickering.)
L: Brandon’s so good with these evocative descriptions. This is something I struggle with in my own writing, so I always appreciate seeing it done well, as it was here!
Stump’s assistant
“He had a flat, wide face, like Lift had learned to associate with people who weren’t born quite the same as other folk.”
L: Is this meant to be a depiction of Down Syndrome? I love that Lift doesn’t discriminate against this boy, or think of him as lesser than she (as can often be the case in the real world, sadly).
A: I was wondering that too. It’s kind of the typical look associated with DS, though it’s certainly not 100% characteristic. In any case, he’s a) clearly got some kind of developmental disability and b) is pretty high functioning—and I love that it doesn’t even make Lift the slightest bit uncomfortable. She’s who she is, and he’s who he is, and it’s all cool.
Injured boy
The boy stared ahead, sightless, drooling. He had a scar on his head, healed mostly, but still an angry red.
A: This kid will show up again, of course, as a Plot Point. Aside from that, we’ll talk about this scene a little more below.
Storming Mother of the World and Father of Storms Above
A: Do spren fall into this category? What the devil are these “keenspren” for whom Wyndle once grew a garden?
L: Perhaps a spren for an order we haven’t seen yet… I can’t imagine Wyndle making something like that for non-sentient spren, and all the sentient ones we’ve seen so far have been bonding people, right?
A: Oooooooooh. Well, of course. Dunno why I didn’t see that there was one more step to make, because you’re absolutely right. As far as we know, all the sapient spren are capable of bonding, and the non-sapient ones wouldn’t be interested in Wyndle’s gardening. I shall guess… Truthwatchers. They seem the most likely Order to bond “keenspren”—at least of the ones we don’t already know.
L: Sapient, or sentient?
A: Brandon prefers sapient, according to what he said at JCon 2016. Sentient just means that it has senses—sapient means self-aware and capable of independent thought. Or something like that.
L: Really? That’s interesting! I wouldn’t have guessed that based on the dictionary definitions of the two words. This is good to know going forward…
A: I just did a “difference between” search, and got this: “Sentient merely says that you have the power to perceive things, or you have consciousness, where sapient implies that the use of that consciousness is showing great wisdom and sound judgment.” So… there’s that. I think Brandon (like all of us) had been using sentient in sort of the Star Trek sense—looking for sentient life. It’s become part of the vocabulary. And then, for whatever reason, he realized that there was a better term, so he started making the switch. I’ve been trying to switch as well.
L: Hunh! Well, I guess I’ll blame all that Star Trek: TNG I watched in my formative years for this one!
A: Make it so!
L: Does this make me Riker? I’m… strangely okay with this, though I’m sad I could never have such a glorious beard.
A: Hold on. I refuse to be bald! I like my hair as it is, thankyouverymuch.
L: BUT MOVING ON…
Darkness & Co.
L: Nothing?
A: Nada.
Everything Else
L: So apparently in this city they’ve got communal ovens, because a fire raged here that killed thousands. What a cool little worldbuilding touch, and not one that I’ve seen in any other fantasy novels I can remember.
“But the way you talked! With all those odd words and terms! How did you know what to say?”
“It just felt right. Words is words.”
L: I wonder if this is just a holdover from her own time as an orphan, or some other manifestation of power? Can Edgedancers somehow interpret language? (Yet later, she can’t read the words on the door of the orphanage.)
A: This might be a matter of empathy. Like, written words don’t have any emotion or sentience attached to them, so there’s nothing but chicken-scratches to “read.” But a person, speaking, has a lot of non-verbal communication tied in—and if an Edgedancer has an empath/telepath upgrade, that would enable her to interpret the meaning behind the lingo.
… Or it could just be street-urchin comprehension.
L: Money on strings, like wen in ancient China, is just such a cool way to keep and measure currency. I’d seen this before in some kung-fu movies, so it was neat to see it mirrored here in Edgedancer!
People left children who were too big to keep caring for, but couldn’t take care of themselves or contribute to the family.
…
She hated how rich people made up this romantic dream of what an orphanage should be like. Perfect, full of sweet smiles and happy singing. Not full of frustration, pain, and confusion.
L: This just breaks my heart, mostly because of the truth of it, even in our own world. Yes, babies are given up into adoption. But it’s the older children that often bear the indignities of remaining in orphanages or being shunted about from foster home to foster home, unwanted because of baggage that should never have been theirs to bear. I don’t have personal experience in this matter, but it seems to me that the reality of being in the foster home system is rarely the “Annie” situation we see so often in fiction (and especially in fantasy books, where it’s rare to have a main character whose parents are actually still alive); plucky youngsters who only need a rich patron to take them in and give them a perfect life and then it’s “happily ever after”s from then on. When is life ever that easy or simple? I love that Sanderson doesn’t shy away from these hard truths.
A: I … I just don’t quite know what to say about the scene where the mother leaves her son at the orphanage. Even knowing what’s going to happen, I can’t help crying over. The heartbreak of a mother whose son is injured and looks like he’s never going to recover. The agony of abandoning him, but at the same time knowing that at least he’ll be cared for and fed, as she can no longer do. The knowledge that she’s likely sacrificing this one so she can care for the others. Basically, the pain of trying to make the best choice when the choices all seem hopeless. This short scene hurts so much, I’m tearing up all over again just trying to respond to it.
::sniffle::
And since we can’t end on that note, here’s one more quote for you. After the philosopher has given Lift (and the reader!) the hint that Stump has some sort of undercover sphere-trading scheme going, he asks her what body part she feels she is most like:
Lift eyed him. Great. Angry twig running an orphanage; weird old man outside it. She dusted off her hands. “If I’m anything, I’m a nose. ’Cuz I’m filled with all kinds of weird crud, and you never know what’s gonna fall out.”
Thank you, Lift, for that elegant imagery.
And with that, we’re out. See you in the comments!
Lyndsey is a writer and cosplayer who wishes she had her own Wyndle to follow her around and bemoan her often dubious life choices. You can see more of her work on her website or follow her on facebook or twitter.
Alice is a busy SAHM, blogger, beta reader, and general literature fan. She is enjoying the discussion of the Oathbringer preview chapters more every week, and hopes you all have seen and had the opportunity to participate in the kickstarter Kaladin project by The Black Piper. If you do Facebook and aren’t already a member, do join her in the Storm Cellar group. Mention that you’re a Tor rereader and you get past any other questions!
That philosopher was…Aimian? Whoever the people are that are made up of insects. Just going off memory here. I’m reading along with the re-read.
My main takeaway from this section, due to the references to the semi-circle of stone benches, is “Brandon and his editors do not know what an amphitheatre is”.
I think that Lift would drive Kaladin crazy. Although I think Syl would find Lift amusing. On the other hand, I think if there is one character who could could tame Lift, it would be Jasnah. I think Jasnah would be like the huge rock formation against the Highstorm: have enough inner strength to withstand the onslaught that is Lift.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I imagined the clemabread being like a tamale. I could see how if someone wasn’t used to cornmeal it would have a very strange consistency compared to bread.
The truth about orphanages is depressing, but I liked that Edgedancer neither romanticized the situation (Stump really is a cranky person with far too little resources), but also, because it’s fantasy there are solutions to problems that wouldn’t exist in our world. (Are we suppose to keep the rest of Edgedancer spoiler free? I tried to make this vague, just in case….)
I had a question about last week’s chapter, but I never got around to posting it, so I am going to ask it here. Wyndle talks about how they talked about bonding with a nice shoemaker (Ym). But he was a proto Truthwatcher. Does this mean that Wyndle and other cultivation spren, if they had gotten to Ym first would have made him an Edgedancer? Or is the group of spren that Wyndle talks about from different types, and that the various types were talking and divvying up various potential knights radiant? Does a person have the innate ability (assuming she or he is already the right kind of broken to attract sapient spren) to be multiple types of knights radiant, or would a person only ever fit with one type or nothing?
Muswell @2 This makes me think about the arguement that Brandon had with Moshe, his editor, about podium vs. lectern in Mistborn (the Well of Ascension – he talks about it in the annotations, I believe). Brandon used podium to mean lectern, which comes from how his religion uses the word. Until I read the annotations, I never knew I was using the wrong word either (I’m the same religion, so it gets used plenty in my life, just like his). It makes me wonder about all of the colloquial speech patterns we use that might be completely wrong factually. Like maybe with amphitheater gere
Collective oven: I’ve seen it used before in books, but I can’t remember which.
But it has been used in real life cultures too. A much more efficient use of time and limited burnable resources to keep cooking fires limited and contained.
It also implies a fairly mild climate. The temperature must not drop too much, or people would find ways to use cook fires to warm their houses.
@2: Brandon knows what one is. Lift, it seems, does not. He’s allowing his characters to be ignorant, and that’s okay.
The abandonment scene is heartbreaking. I was friends with kids from the local “kids home” as it was called in the late 1980s & 1990s. Shudder. The stories some of them had of life are heartbreaking. I’ll stop before it becomes a rant.
Great quotes mentioned. I Have totally forgottten them
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 6 – I’d give Brandon the benefit of the doubt, except that:
a) the first time Lift thinks of it she thinks of it as a theatre, then every single time afterwards as an amphitheatre, which is weird, as you’d expect someone with Lift’s background to pick a word and stick with it; and
b) Szeth calls it an amphitheatre too, and wouldn’t have picked the word up from her but (assuming he was unfamiliar with the term, as the Shin are unlikely to have such structures because of the whole stones being hallowed thing) from the scribes, who should know better.
Both of these point to Brandon & co making the error, not Lift.
Clemabread sounds like a tamale.
@2 A quick google search of images brings up plenty of reference images that match the description. I must be suffering from the same problem as BS and Co, or perhaps your idea is too restricted?
@@.-@ Thora re: Spoilers – it’s a reread of Edgedancer, so it’s assuming this isn’t our first read and we can talk about things that are coming. (It’s the Oathbringer preview chapters that we’re avoiding spoiling.)
Interesting couple of chapters! This is a new experience for me – during the WoT reread, I’d read everything so many times that I wasn’t really doing a reread in ‘real time’. I’ve only read Edgedancer once, when Arcanum Unbounded came out. Now, I’m waiting for the reread post, quickly reading my chapters of Edgedancer, then coming back here to see what y’all said about it. Fun! Thanks Alice, Lyndsey, all!
Because I’m yet another of the Clueless Males who missed the menstruation reference at the beginning of Edgedancer, this chapter was, I think, my first hint that Edgedancer would be darker than the original Lift interlude at WoR. That interlude was pure lighthearted fun and awesomeness, with a side order of Intriguing Hints about the Knights Radiant, Nalan, the Cognitive Realm, and the Nightwatcher. All fun and intrigue.
Chapter 5 makes me so sad for Lift. She’s so afraid to be known. She puts it in terms of expectations, but – what it really comes down to is relationships, attachments. Yes, when people know us they come to expect things of us, and that can be confining (and hey, Lift, you can be known without being *required* to become the person others expect of you! You can still make choices to be true to yourself!). But she’s spent (I assume) at least 3 years without attachments to people. What happened to her? What happened to her mom? What traumas have her so, well, broken?
And then Chapter 6, of course. The first part of the chapter makes me think of Spook. It didn’t occur to me on first read, but now I’m wishing he could come translate for me, because that language is CRAZY. (Not that I think there’s a relationship to Spook or Scadrial! But it’s cool to see Brandon going back to this well of crazy urchin-speak.) Alternately frustrating and entertaining, and at least Lift translated the gist of it to Wyndle (and us!).
But that’s quickly overshadowed by our actual experience at the orphanage. So sad. So many kids unwanted. “I will remember those who are forgotten” indeed. Lift’s going to the injured boy and taking his hand…*love*
Things I missed on first read:
1. Aimian/Sleepless guy – totally didn’t think he would be important when I first read this.
2. The Stump trading for spheres – I just assumed there was some kind of smuggling/money laundering/something. Totally missed that she would be trading dun spheres for ones with Stormlight.
@1 Dysian Aimian. There are (at least) two types of Aimian.
@3 Andrew, I now CANNOT WAIT FOR A JASNAH/LIFT TEAM-UP. SO EPIC.
@@.-@ re: Wyndle/Ym – *sigh* Like Alice, I was totally of the camp that Ym would’ve been an Edgedancer, but I guess WoB confirmed that he was a proto-Truthwatcher. Further WoB is that Ym had attracted attention from more than one type of spren who were considering bonding him. There is SO MUCH MORE we need to know about the process of bonding a spren!
@6 I believe in the preface before this novella, in the AU, the narrator/guide, states that the oxygen content of roshar is about 30%, so fires would be a larger problem than here on earth where oxygen is 21%.
@10 – An amphitheatre goes the whole way round, so that people can see the centre from both sides (“amphi” means “both”, “theatron” means “place for viewing”). They’re good for watching fights, which have no specific back to them. A theatre can go from slightly over 180 degrees to as small an area as you would wish. They’re good for watching plays, as everyone’s on the same side of the actors so the scene can have a back (and indeed a structure containing the machinery for a literal deus ex machina).
For an amphitheatre, think the Colosseum or the place where Brian meets the People’s Front of Judea in Life of Brian. For an outdoor semi-circular theatre, think the Theatre at Epidauros (where the acoustics are so good that if someone drops a pin in the centre of the orchestra you can hear it in the back row of seats; I have tried this and it works).
As to whether my idea is too restricted – I have a degree in this stuff. I know whereof I speak.
I love the idea of the spheres strung together. It’s like the Chinese wen, only since they’re small roundish things it’s more like a colorful (assuming infuse spheres) glowing pearl/bead/marble necklace. It says they don’t always wear them but it sounds so fun.
As a mom I’m glad I’ll probably never have to make the choices the mom of the injured boy did. I’m not sure if I could. I hope she’d heard rumors about this orphanage and hoped it would turn out better for everyone, but still. Wow. I had friends in HS in the foster system and that is such a hard life.
I was going to say that Lift is provably at least several years older than 10 because the spren bonds we’ve seen so far have all been older teens to adults, but then I remembered how Shallan bonded pattern originally as a much younger child, so that theory doesn’t really work. But I bet she’s still older than at least 13 (or 10 for the 3rd time). Sometimes the unreliable narrator gets to me. I just want to know what’s actually going on, okay!
@13 The common usage, degree notwithstanding, includes semi circles. I don’t think anyone has successfully convinced people to stop using language the way they wish.
@11 – I have a theory that spren bonding was much more formalized back in the Radiant’s heyday. From what that Radiant told Dalinar in a vision, I gather that potential Radiants went to Urithiru to be evaluated and maybe even had interviews with the different orders. Once the proto-Radiant chose the order, that order had a spren cross over to bond with them. At least, that’s my theory.
Nonsense. Everything is “good stuff’ when Lift is involved.
Starve it, I need to own Edgedancer. *checks the Library of Congress audiobooks for the blind* Yaaay, I can download Arcanm Unbounded now. *downloads it* BRB, re-experiencing these chapters.
@@@@@ 15 – Would you be a Leftpondian, by any chance? Common usage in Britain definitely does not include a semicircle, though a few theatres use “amphitheatre” for what others would call the Upper Circle, and are thus at least consistent in using circular names for non-circular things (the Upper Circle can be of widely varying shapes, occasionally veering towards circular almost by accident).
If it is a Leftpondian usage, I will shrug eloquently and mutter under my breath about the modern penchant for robbing the world of the benefit of a useful word or phrase by changing its usage to one for which there’s already a perfectly good term or phrase, making it necessary to come up with a new phrase to replace the one that has been so cruelly treated. Looking at you, begging the question.
Clemabread: I can’t remember, was it wrapped when handed to Lift?
Because a tamale needs to be wrapped by something, otherwise it falls apart. But if it is a tamale – yummy. Sounds much better. But the description can be odd sounding. Plus, I hope it’s larger than the average tamale I eat in Texas. I need 3-4 average tamales to feel like a meal. One is a side dish.
It could also be a dumpling or empanada of sorts. Well, empanada = hot pocket, in a grand scheme type way.
Clemabread. I can see it being a tamale, empanada, or perhaps even a pupusa since BS has mentioned that he wanted to include some Hispanic influences. But my first thought was of a samosa.
@18 I am an amateur anglophile but I wasn’t aware of this strict use on that side of the pond. Theater in the round is a novelty experience in theater any more. Here, venues that wrap all the way around are typically stadiums or arenas and a “natural amphitheater” is way more likely to evoke a partial circle than a full one. While I recognized the root of the objection when you mentioned it, if someone mentions the Ampitheatre at Epidauros nobody is going to be confused about the reference, assuming they have heard of Epidauros.
So we have a wide alleyway mouth with rows of seats cut into both of the sides, leaving an open space in the middle: “making a half circle, like some kind of theater” — which sounds exactly like the definition as based on the Greek words. The only difference from the amphitheaters we tend to think of, like the Colosseum, is that the seats really are mostly on both sides rather than all the way around, and the alleyway continues out the back. It’s an alleyway in Yeddaw, not a grand spectacle in Azir; a modest amphi (on both sides) theater (place for viewing), but an amphitheater nonetheless.
@@@@@ 2, 10 This brings up an interesting linguistic issue that many authors are faced with (or several, come to think of it) : regional discrepancies in meanings of the words (most often brought to light by “this” and “that” side of the pond) and the modernisation of language either in a) general populace wherein the correct term is only used within a given profession b) general populace with no subgroup retaining the use of the word in the general meaning. Two most widely known examples of cases a) and b) that come to mind are “weight” for the former and “gay” for the latter. Most people talk about their “weight” and how many kg they lost or gained, whilst what they’re really discussing is mass, thus, barring scientists discussing forces, few use the term correctly, yet fewer still would raise issue over this as its so ingrained in effectively all cultures (I wonder, is there a culture where people talk of losing or gaining mass, rather than weight?). For “gay”, I do not think any native English speaker would commonly use that to indicate a lively or jovial individual these days, unless discussing or reciting plays from way back in the day.
My question then would be, what should the authors do if, for instance, there is a strong regional discrepancy in the meaning of the word? Or if they are giving a POV from a specialist in the area, yet the word is used differently elsewhere?
I have also seen fanatasy authors stick to using words from medieval versions of the language (not necessarily English either), using terms unused for centuries and unknown to the general public – I, personally, found the reading difficult, even if it made the setting more believably pre-Renaissance.
Do not have much to add re reactions to the orphanage in addition to what was already said; I agree that I think it was the right path to take re believability of the setting, and how things are not at all rosy for most of them.
Brining up something from previous chapter rereads – I am currently rereading Warbreaker, and with Wyndle complaining of memory loss it got me looking at the parallels between the Returned and spren – so far, looking at Lightsong’s POV, it seems to be a remarkably similar process – the Returned die, I assume their cognitive shadows (dear theoreticians, any WOBs on this I missed, or am reading this wrong?) return to the Physical realm unable to remember any interactions they had in the Cognitive Realm (in this case, discussion with Endowment/Edgli, I guess), with only few vague recollections/premonitions as to their reasoning for returning – this seems to be a very similar process with spren – the manifestation in the Physical Realm causes them memory loss. I wonder if Kelsier will have similar troubles or would find some work around or, if he is a Special Case, yet again? In any case, I find this to be a very neat parallel, especially as it bridges books spanning circa 10 years (in this case, I specifically mean Warbreaker and Edgedancer).
@18 oh and thanks for the reminder of this eloquent mutter by Jonathan Swift.
“…its daily Improvements are by no means in proportion to its daily Corruptions;… it offends against every Part of Grammar.”
“Money” strung together is also done in Dune when Chani is told how to tie Paul’s water rings in a kerchief.
@5 Thora. I have one word for you: non-plussed. It is used incorrectly so often the dictionary definition I read mentions the meaning is changing due to usage. I have to agree, to me it always felt “wrong” when used correctly.
Regarding Shinovar, does the fact of stones being scared mean they can’t be used?
I always lurk around at SA reads and these rereads, get all kind of thoughts and theories and emotions, and then when I get to the comments, almost everything has usually already been said, and every so often I feel totally incompetent when reading everything the others have noticed and speculate about (though I’m happy to notice that this is becoming less and less so), so I often don’t say anything at all. But it’s good to be lurking, you can learn a lot that way :)
What I haven’t noticed pointed out yet is that I think Lift is 13 years old, not older, for does the beginning of menarche make a strong case for this?
goddessimho @25 – Oh, don’t even get me started on “nonplussed.” I get very frustrated when the word is misused, and I absolutely hate the way the misuse is now being called “correct” because it’s used wrongly so often. It’s a really, really good word in it’s original meaning, which derives from very clear Latin words; in it’s misuse, it means nothing etymologically, and there are already plenty of words that actually do mean what they’re trying to say.
*sigh*
I loved that word…
The spheres during together seem wrong to me. Shouldn’t poking holes through them make the stormlight leak out faster? Maybe there’s something in realmatic theory to explain why drilling holes through spheres is fine. Maybe whatever it is will even prove vital to the plot.
What’s up with nonplussed? How is it being misused?
@29 nonplussed officially means something close to “baffled, confused”. People have been using it to mean “unimpressed, unbothered.”
@30 – Hmmm I don’t think I’ve seen it used in that context
Thanks Alice and Lyndsey,
I do enjoy your banter, especially the discussion regarding clemabread (the double “EWW” was great!) and I appreciated your observations regarding kids being placed in orphanages (Alice focusing more on the perspective of the parent, Lyndsey moreso referencing stories/persepctives from the kids).
On first read I figured the Stump would be an “important” character, but I didn’t pay the Philosopher much mind. Turns out, they both are rather noteworthy :)
I wonder if this is just a holdover from her own time as an orphan, or some other manifestation of power? Can Edgedancers somehow interpret language?
I like the theory that it’s an Edgedancer power, because of a later scene that bothered me. When Lift is trying to get through to Male, she yells something like, “Deny that’s what you’re really seeing!”, and on my first read it felt off to me. I’d think Lift would say something more like, “Tell me that’s not stormin’ Voidbringers, then!”, or something. But if Edgedancers can adjust their speech to the audience when they’re in listening mode, then it makes more sense for her speech patterns to change when she’s talking to street urchins, insane Heralds, or whoever.
I’m so thankful to this week’s re-read for reminding me who the Stump is. Following discussion on Oathbreaker has occasionally been very confusing due to references to this character. I’m sorry Stump, you were upstaged in my mind by Stick.
Also thankful to the both of you for the weekly re-read posts and to others for their insight, wit and theorizing!
Re: nonplussed – To expand a little on soursavior’s definition @30… It’s from Latin, “non” meaning “no” and “plus” meaning “more” – so it literally means “no more!” It carries the sense of being at the limit of what one can comprehend or handle, with the next step being overwhelmed. For reasons completely unknown to me, people started (mis)using it to mean “unperturbed” or “unphased” “unfazed” – which is very close to being the opposite meaning. It’s kind of a pet peeve.
The revelation of how dangerous fire is on Roshar was really interesting to me, and it makes for a fun thing to watch out for in rereading WOK and WOR.
Can we avoid any Oathbringer related discussion? Even something like the fact people are discussing Stump is something of a spoiler.
People are discussing Stump because barely anything is out and there’s nothing to discuss :) Stump is 100% Edgedancer. As for nonplussed, I’m not sure about which definitions I’ve encountered. My problem is with bemused – I can never tell how the writer wants it to be used – as is correct or as the commonly used but wrong definition.
Personally, I rather like it when I go to Pizza Aroma for the first time in months and the guy remembers that I always want a slice of white garlic pizza. But I’m not Lift. Sadly.
I adore all of Lift’s utterances and internal monologues, with their wonderful mix of supreme snark, weird similes, quiet tragedy, skewed perception, and logic. Such as “If you actually traded food, everyone would eat up all their money, and then where would society be?”
I’ve forgotten – does Stump know at this point that she’s healing the children she accuses of “faking it”? Either way, it’s a bit painful in hindsight to see blameless children take that blame.
I’m surprised Lift said she would be a nose instead of some part of the upper alimentary tract. But she always strives to surprise. And “I’m full of weird crud and you never know what will fall out” describes her personality pretty well.
*looking for dictionary troll* I don’t want to add to the discussion of nonplussed. Just wanted to say that its misuse is also one of my pet peeves. *hides again*
RE: Fire on Roshar. Some of the Worldhoppers have access to firearms. That could be a very interesting thing if they aren’t careful.
@39:
If she knows, its deep down, and she’s denying it to herself.
I don’t think Lift could be older than 13-14, because of the menarche thing in ch. 1. She’s changing, but she’s in denial.
@41 doesn’t Jasnah show up at the end of WOR with some kind of bandolier? I’m secretly hoping she’s become a markswoman.
Or an Abhorsen, would also accept that.
@@.-@ and others – I also imagined something with the basic texture of a tamale, though it’d need to have a little more integrity to be handed out like Stump is doing.
@16 – I agree, especially because this seems to be the way Darkness is managing his followers: more of a trial period to see who’s worthy to get a spren.
Re: the unusual language in the exchange with the street urchin: surely I’m not the only one to whom this passage screamed “Wayne!!!”
IIRC, Wayne’s linguistic adaptability wasn’t part of either of his Twinborn abilities, but caused by something about “Connection” (about which I am very vague and will gladly wait for Brandon to reveal it in due course). So I “hopped” this concept over from Scadrial and applied Connection to Lift as well. It would account for both her slang-intense conversation with the urchin and her more formal interchange with Darkness later (as noted by @33 above).
So while a Lift / Jasnah meetup would be way cool, the person I really want Lift to meet is Wayne. That can happen, right? Please say yes… ;-)
@44: Ha, my mind went to Garth Nix’s work when Lift began wielding a trident. ;-)
@45: Lift/the Lopen/Wayne meet-up. Omg, could even a Brandon book contain so much awesomeness in one place?!?
@47: Maybe a JordanCon or Christmas special?
I’ll have to ask Billy Todd about stacking the decks so that is the character combo for a strange situation.
“When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants. From Words of Radiance , chapter 20, page 12″
@33 I agree with you. I think Edgedancers have a bit of blank Connection they can use to understand anyone and everyone.
Hmm. That power would also account for Lift’s narration sometimes being what you’d expect from her and sometimes being starving eloquent. Alternately maybe Captain Barbossa was her father.
Wetlandernw @35: Since we’re being grammatically picky today, I’m pretty sure you meant “unfazed”, not “unphased.” :-)
And count me among the ones who hate the way nonplussed is being used.
I agree with @38. To me, it seems bemused is much more egregiously misused. It now seems to mean being lightheartedly amused about something, rather than the actual definition of bewildered or confused. In fact, the mildly amused version is one of the definitions on dictionary.com (though the Usage note talks about this).
bad_platypus @51 – Oh, good grief. That’s pathetic. I hang my head in shame – especially since this is something I’ve picked out on gammas before! ::blushing deeply::
When it comes time for Lift to meet the other KR, I picture Kaladin being totally baffled (nonplussed?) by Lift, and Shallan maybe taking her under her wing. Shallan and Lift are both liars, to others and themselves, though Lift’s version is more brash. Kind of a Dirty Rotten Scoundrels pairing. I do think Wayne is in Roshar (a certain coach driver who took Wit’s place), and a meeting between him and Lift sounds delightful!
@33 It could be her Edgedancer Listening skill, or it may be her tie to the cognitive realm, or a combination of the two. It would be interesting to see other ED’s for comparison.
I agree with the idea that Lift probably is really 13, or at least not too much older. Partly because the other spren have only recently begun bonding people in preparation for the desolation. Also Ym only recently was killed, and Wyndle was considering him first–he wasn’t likely to have been considering bonding Ym a very long time ago.
I was thinking about how Lift apparently asked the Nightwatcher, who is presumably a spren of Cultivation, for the boon of staying the same. How much would a spren associated with growth and change understand the concept of preservation? And anyway I think I remember someone saying people ask a boon of the Nightwatcher, and NW grants what s/he thinks the person deserves (not necessarily what is requested), as well as a curse. So that might explain why Lift doesn’t seem to have received the gift she requested.
And while we’re on the subject of grammar pet peeves: I’m literally rolling over in my grave about the re-purposing of “literally.”
Interesting – maybe because I love spicy food, and I also like pasty fillings, I thought clemabread sounded really tasty, even if the texture might leave a little to be desired.
@@.-@ – I posed the same question on a previous thread (or maybe it was the Oathbringer thread…). I don’t know!
The abandonment scene is really difficult for me to read. I am glad at least this story has a happy-ish ending, but I know for many it doesn’t. I have a few friends who have been involved in fostering (both domestic and internationally) and it’s so, so hard. But Lift’s general attitude towards the abandond and special needs kids are what make her so endearing to me.
I always wondered if Stump was just making a show of saying they are ‘faking it’ so that people then just take for granted that’s what happening when they are mysteriously healed. But I was never sure how much Stump knew either.
Regading word crimes, my big pet peeve is how literally has basically come to mean figuratively, even in the dictionary. Sigh. (Although I have to admit, I always have heard amphitheater used to describe a half circle too. I did visit an amphitheater in Trier, but that one is a full circle…well, more oblong, than circle).
I also recall the moment I realized I had been using nonplussed correctly all this time, lol. Although maybe part of the confusion comes from that both meanings can result in the same thing – a person who is basically not reacting. Except that instead of it being becuase they are blase, it’s actually because they’ve just so overwhelmed by whatever happened they shut down.
@@.-@5 – ah, that is a brilliant connection (no pun intended).
But I agree in genreal it’s hard to say how much of Lift’s abilities are standard “Edgedancer” abilities, how much is due to her (possibly) being partially in the cognitive realm (and why she is if that is the case) and how much has to do with her boon/curse. Or how any of those are connected, if at all.
Also, this is relevant, of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc
(As an aside to British friends, I know there is some controversy because the word ‘spastic’ is used as an insult which has completely different connotations in America than it does in the UK).
Chaplainchris @11:
I am pretty sure that Stump did have a sphere smuggling/ money laundering operation going – that’s how she was getting the funds to run her orphanage, as well as opportunities to skim stormlight. That’s also why Nale was able to go after her – he did, after all, need a legal pretext.
The Kholins have no idea how lucky they were – since I assume that’s the reason that Nale didn’t try to kill them, them despite being aware of their incipient Radiancy – no way to get those warrants for the High King’s family, not to mention Gavilar himself.
Re: Lift remaining unchanged for a long time, it is an interesting thought. The spren only starting to bond people again in the last few years doesn’t contradict this notion, as Nightwatcher’s boon would be separate from this. In fact, the bond may have nudged Lift out of her limbo and prompted physical growth that vexes her so.
OTOH, do we actually know that the spren haven’t been trying to bond some few people over the years, only for their bondmates to be hunted down and killed by Nale and his “Skybreakers”?
I also think that Stump may be another Truthwatcher – her first Surge to develop was Regrowth, like poor Ym’s. And she doesn’t seem Edgedancer-ish in personality at all.
Austin @16:
I agree. In fact, I imagine that back before the Recreance Radiant hopefuls also spent some years as squires of an Order that accepted them, before being allowed to bond a spren of their own.
This discussion and the one over at Oathbringer really has me thinking about Surge Interactions, both within the Radient and between Radients. For one, do the Words clue us in on the specialty abilities of our heros? We’ve heard that Windrunners have squire strength as their special ability. Is that because their Oaths to protect extend to lending Stormlight assistance to those that share that ideal? Does a typical Edgedancer’s articulence arise because they listen better? And if Dalinar really boosted Shallan’s Lightweaver ability in the map room, is that a function of uniting the Orders instead of dividing them? (Roll over for questions/speculation)
Medieval villages often had a communal bakery that was some distance from other houses to avoid fires spreading. People still had cooking fires. They didn’t bake every day anyway, so it’s not really effective as heating.
In ancient Roman insulae cooking was forbidden because of the danger of fire. People who lived there had to eat at restaurants.
The Stormlight is no liquid inside a hollow sphere. It is stored in the solid crystal. Boring a hole through the crystal makes it smaller so it probably holds less Stormlight, but it doesn’t make it leak out faster (unless a bigger surface area speeds up the leakage)
@58 I’m pretty sure she’s a Truthwatcher because her spren isn’t a vine/plant thing like Wyndle. Though who knows what an Edgedancer is supposed to be like? Lyft is the opposite of everything we know about the historical order.
I don’t know how everyone else who’s avoiding the preview chapters feels, but I consider sharing what discussions they’ve inspired to be a spoiler. If that sort of thing is going to continue, I’ll have to bow out of the comments sections until after I’ve read the book.
PLEASE DO NOT MENTION OATHBRINGER DISCUSSION IN THIS REREAD.
I flagged the comment @59, so that last bit will get the whiteout treatment. Going forward, I ask two things of y’all: 1) be careful to avoid Oathbringer spoilers in the comments and 2) if you notice one, go ahead and flag it as a spoiler so the moderators can take care of it asap.
Thanks.
My bad. Sorry.
Very late to the party, but I still wanted to contribute. First, on topic, WRT Lift’s how long she’s been unchanged: my theory (which I doubt is unique or particularly original) is that Lift was never unchanging (at least in magical terms). She’s just probably small for her age and possibly late entering puberty. Being malnourished does that normally, and if at least some of your food is getting converted to stormlight, I’d guess the effect could be even more pronounced. It’s only after she’d been eating well and regularly that her body started playing catch up.
If this is the case, and assuming she asked to be unchanging as her boon (I doubt she wanted to convert food to stormlight), the more interesting question becomes “how was her wish interpreted by the Nightwatcher.
Re amphitheatre, nonplussed and such: I appreciate your efforts, but it’s a losing battle against either common usage or, even worse, “common knowledge”. Last week, on another website, a news story about a giant clog in the London sewers made reference to “Wipe makers and nonwoven fabric industry representatives”. One of the comments noted that “nonwoven fabric” is an oxymoron.
Several respondents pointed out felt as a “nonwoven fabric”. This site has an upvote/downvote system for comments, and all the comments bringing up felt or such were highly upvoted, while the oxymoron poster was consistently downvoted, even after he explained how both “fabric” and “non-woven cloth” are subsets of “textile”. Considering this site generally attracts smarter commenters who will often favor technically correct (the best kind of correct) responses, I was very disappointed at the one-sidedness of the voting and argument.
Coming in quite late:
To me, clemabread would be a Chinese dumpling like my neighbors, the Chans, used to serve. With Brandon Sanderson’s missionary experience, he is more likely to have had the Korean version.
As for Ym’s attractiveness to spren: remember, people have to be “broken” in a specific way to bond. There may be a limited pool of such people.
And that urchin Lift chats with: Hoid. I’m only half-serious, but he could pull off the disguise with Lightweaving, and he’d really enjoy the conversation. And we know he likes to influence to-be Radiants.
I’m totally serious about this one. @22 comments about Kelsier’s memory when he escapes the Cognitive Realm. I think we know the answer: he lost his.
Because Kaladin is Kelsier reincarnated.
Notice: the similar name. The unreasoning hatred of the hereditary aristocracy. Kaladin’s instinctive mastery of a weapon Kelsier was expert with, and also of the Windrunner powers so similar to two aspects of Allomancy.
He’s baaaaack.
First off the thing about flames makes the entire boat scene in wor alot more understandable.
Second about the spheres with holes they would shape the spheres so the hole would go through the glass not the gem remember that depending on the size of the spheres the gemstones are quite small.
I was checking another word today due to job assignment and came across this ad in Merriam-Webster online dictionary. Considering the comments here, I could NOT not copy the link here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/nonplussed?src=defrecirc-exploremerriam-webster
BTW, Carl @66, I like your theories. Especially about Hoid. Would be so like him.
Celebrinnen @68 – exactly so…
Oh my gosh, this is more hilarious than I expected: “For the next three hundred and some years nonplus remained on the straight and narrow, avoiding the temptations of demon rum and semantic drift”